Join for FREE | Take the Tour Lost Password?

deviantART

 

Hypocrisy In 3D & Crap Enlightment

Journal Entry: Mon Jun 22, 2009, 4:27 PM
Crap Enlightenment

Hello friends. A couple weeks ago I've wrote a journal about people who are doing very low quality stuff and not even accepting any comment or critique. I thought people on my friends list here might be offended. But actually I wasn't thinking about any of you. People I mentioned on that particular entry actually not even watching me. So when think about what I did - writing that entry was totally pointless. Because they are also living in my country, and their English speaking abilities are also not that good (usually they have no idea what I'm talking about here). Also they are girls, probably 3-4 girls. Playing with their expensive cameras and a illegally downloaded version of Photoshop.

So NO OFFENSE okay people? You are all working hard to create the beautiful stuff in your galleries and it's always a pleasure to me to observe your wonderful artistic creations. If we can clear this out we can move to the next one.
Hypocrisy In 3D

Okay so another thing I've had in mind for a long time about the 3D tools and their usage. Many people know that I hate 3ds max! Just kidding... :D And I'm sorry for the people who expecting that my favorite band Hypocrisy is in 3D - they are not :D

There's a kind of hypocrisy going on in 3D world - I hope it's not an offensive word but people using Poser, Bryce, Vue are always pushed away from the professional CG world for a long time. Pushed away from forums, magazines ect got comments like "don't rely on Bryce, learn Lightwave" and so on. But, Poser/Bryce/Daz people built their own communities and they grew up very fast. Personally I always believed the potential of Vue since it was just Vue D'esprit 3 (which I started to use) and many people think that it's just a better version of Bryce. And in time, that application Vue between those - which usually called "landscape generator", became more than just that and added to the work flow of special fx companies like ILM and Lucasfilm.

Why?

The main reason of course ease of use. With the words from an artist on ILM "You can create vast forests in a very short time and ensemble a whole digital set with it in days - with Maya it's usually took weeks to finish". Imagine as a freelancer you are working on an environment and your client want you to finish in a couple of days... Isn't it great to finish a scene like that in days and earn your money fast? Time equals money especially if you are working as a freelancer. No one can say no to that.

Large scale software developers understood that artist oriented software are always preferable because we are artists not math professors. More and more 3D software are becoming user friendly and easy of use. Maya 1 doesn't have any proper interface but command lines to render a scene. You need to be a programmer to use it. Of course they still have their scripting languages and of course it's important. But we can say everything is way easy and way more artist oriented right now - and it will be more in the future.

Latest GoZ plug-in of Zbrush shows the attitude of Pixologic about integrating the software. Now it's actually though process to create and export normal and displacement maps for a new started user. It's time consuming in tight deadlines even for an experienced user. Notice that they are working on it to make things EASY.

Look for another particular example; for the people working on 3D architectural visualization, there are pre-modeled elements are on sale for websites like Evermotion. You can purchase a ton of trees, plants, furniture ect. ect. to use on your interior scene. They are giving this service because we all know tight deadlines are stressful and we are all humans.

Modeling from scratch is the base starting point, first step and a MUST to learn on 3D. You need to learn all kind of modeling. AND choose one method to fits your abilities then keep working on the other one to improve. If you are good on organics then go with it and keep practicing on hard surface modeling or if you are good on hard surfaces go with it and keep learning organics ect. For me - hard surfaces are much easier to model. But what I can do when I need a figure on my composition? And I don't want to make a boxy one - but a nice one.

Here comes the POSER.

"Poser began as a spare time hobby in 1989 (while I was doing 3D animation and special effects at Rhythm & Hues Studios in Hollywood). My goal was to experiment with interaction techniques and develop a digital mannikin which could be used as posing reference for some comic strip work I was trying to complete. As Poser developed I realized it could be useful to many other artists. I then set out to make the world's easiest to use 3D product.

In 1994 Fractal Design decided it would be worth trying Poser as a companion product to their flagship software, Painter. I never expected Poser to survive beyond a first release, but the art world understood the need for it immediately! Poser has taken me, my programming partners, several companies and parent companies, and hundreds of thousands of users, on a wild ride since those beginnings -- becoming a full blown, professionally-powerful human modeling system, 3D rendering environment, and -- at its heart -- the perfect digital mannikin." - Larry Weinberg [link]

They wanted to make things easier for themselves and US. Since I discovered the Poser I always use it when I need figures to implement my compositions. When I modeled a ton of hard surface elements for a city and if I need a figure to observing that city from a hill - what I'm gonna do? Instead of a boxy figure I've done - I place a nice Poser figure. Because someone better than me on organics is already made it. Many of 3D modelers might not like what I said here. Technical side is always important, but also the results.

What believe is; instead of pushing people away because they are using Poser, we should separate good, high quality work from the bad ones. Also we need to understand people who are doing bad images with 3D software are might be beginners - and we all did the same low quality work at the beginning.

Also we don't need hypocrisy. We all use pre-modeled elements or materials when we out of time. Is it okay to put ready-to-use models when using 3ds max - and forbidden to use a Poser figure?! if it is - that's what I called hypocrisy.

We need to see the results. Critique the artwork considering the level of the artist. We should get rid of the prejudice about the tools like "that's cool because it's done in Maya - that's bad because it'd done with Poser"... I saw even very beautiful scenes with great composition were got bad comments because of the usage of Poser. I personally always tried to critique to the artwork itself - best as I can. And I admit that I had the same prejudice against Poser until I get the book Secrets Of The Poser Experts which is a great book and highly recommended to everyone. You can see how much work to put in one image even they are lot of tools to make things easier.

Showing respect to the good art which touches or soul and impress us is a noble behavior. And as the artists I know we are all noble...

Collaborations





  • Mood: Content
  • Listening to: Sonata Arctica
  • Reading: Power Of Now - Eckhart Tolle
  • Watching: Rise Of The Lycans
  • Playing: Mouse
  • Eating: Keyboard
  • Drinking: More Water

Devious Comments

love 0 0 joy 0 0 wow 0 0 mad 0 0 sad 0 0 fear 0 0 neutral 0 0
:iconhoegoeshinseki:
Personally, I think it's cheating to use Poser. But, some people do amazing artwork with it---and I won't leave a bad critique on something just because they used Poser. I like Bryce, if I want to do something ultra quick, but there's really nothing like modeling. XD It's true...we were all beginners once. While I don't generally use "instant programs," it's kinda nice if you just wanna goof in 3d and not really do anything. ^^

--
Be grateful for the life that you have.
:iconpriteeboy:
Hmm, I can see both sides of the argument here. I can understand why people would deter Bryce from the professional scene, since let's face it - that is the 3D Equivalent of "GIMP" to Photoshop, and at risk of offending someone, I have never ever seen a worthwhile peice of 3D art from a bryce user here...they often look like Vue 4 renders or Playstation-1 games at best :p however that's forgivvable given the limitations of the program, so not fully the artists fault I guess, but unless they can get better software and learn that, they'll never recah the professional scene, but once again - money is an issue, it's no surprise why 3D software is so pirated - it costs so much that those wanting to learn at their own accord can't afford it, and no-one is going to pay hundreds or even thousands just because they might be interested in becoming a 3D artist :disbelief:

Vue and Poser seem to be partner-programs, and they share the same issues too. Problem is that even though Poser has great models and Vue completes it with great trees/terrain capablities - many are too lazy and just eveyrthing "as is" - I wish I had a dollar for everytime I see a Vue scene that uses recognisable preset atmospheres, materials and Ecosystems, often slapped together in 10 minutes...I bet the rendering alone took longer than the working time :lol: same thing with poser, I often see store-bought models put in cheap and often creepy lighting scenarios, only to to see the same artist has uploaded 20 different renders of the same model/scene in one day with little variation between each :movingon:

However, that's not to say using the provied models from poser, or the provided trees from Vue is "wrong" - but they have to just be an asset to something bigger that shows you spent time on it, like a poser model standing on the cliff overlooking of some dramatic sci-fi scene you made is fine! as is a whole bunch of Vue trees making up some grand landscape, since they are the tools to your creation...But rendering a lone poser figure you didn't make is just as cheap as rendering a single Vue tree on it's own and calling it "your creation" :hmm:

That's why I try to make use of at least some things I modelled myself in my Vue scenery, or postwork it to give it my personal artistsic touch...I'm not as good as you at general Modelling, but we seem to both use Cinema 4D, which sadly is also in the shadow of Giants like Maya and Max :(

--
*priteeboy - proud founder of ~The Worst Artists on dA club! - take a look, have a laugh :pointandlaugh: :|
:iconnukeation:
I know what you mean, Kerem. You can hear that anti-poser sentiment a lot in 3D circles - even more on the professional forums like CGTalk. I've always said that a person - especially an artist - has to learn his or her limits. For me, personally, human modelling is a nasty thing that I just have no aptitude for. That is why I really like Poser. It lets me add a new dimension to my art pieces and helps me with an aspect for which I don't have much skill.

Personally, I think if a character modeller uses Poser, yes, in some ways that might be considered cheating, but when a landscape modeller uses Poser just to augment his or her landscape piece or natural scene, there's absolutely nothing wrong. Otherwise it's like asking a saxophone player to play the piano!

I don't remember who said this - it might have been Boris Vallejo, or maybe it was some artist who did a Star Wars book cover - anyways, he said when asked about "cheating" by using photos mixed with actual painting, and he said something to the effect that for a commercial artist, the bottom line is getting the job done and making sure the client gets what they need. I think only people who have worked in the actual commercial art industry can understand that. Especially freelancers. Big studio employees don't have to worry about things and get stressed at levels freelancers have to.

Oh boy, I think I just opened myself to hate mail/comments from some people. But it had to be said. :D

Y'know what's funny? Those people who keep coming back to an artist's online gallery (like a dA account or elsewhere) and keep saying bad things (not even constructive criticizm) on just about everything, or just challenge anything the artist does. Happens to me, sometimes. I could care less. But it is very funny that if you don't like the artist's work, why the hell do you watch him and keep coming back?

--
7300 hours in Vue and counting...

[link] - QuadSpinner Vue Training
:icongothitink:
I have to admit, I'm a complete idiot when it comes to the 3D world. I leave all that stuff to you and others I know. I'm one of those girls with the photoshop and digital cameras. ;P Albeit, I do have a legal copy and I am honestly trying to learn new techniques with my photomanipulations. :)

Even though I don't know much about 3D programs and the use of them...
... as an avid admirer of 3D artists, I can tell you it doesn't make a difference to me if the artist used something that was pre-modeled or modeled it him or herself. It's all what the imagination does with what they are using that makes the difference.

I don't think there is anything wrong with making the image a little less time consuming by utilizing what's available. That's just my opinion.

--
"How could you be so cruel, and expect my faith in return?"
- Dream Theater


Yes, I am THE Pirate.


:pirate: :ahoy: :pirate: :ahoy: :pirate: :ahoy: :pirate:
:iconlordstormdragon:
"I don't think there is anything wrong with making the image a little less time consuming by utilizing what's available. That's just my opinion."

There's nothing wrong with it. The issue is results, though. I understand you're not from a 3D background, but Poser figures will always look cheap, low-poly, and weak compared to characters modeled using the high-end tools and workflows. If a CG character LOOKS CG, then it's usually a Poser character. If it looks truly realistic, then it certainly did not come from Poser.

--
Commodore 64 @ 1MHz
64KB RAM
1541 Floppy Drive

"I am the Storm."
:iconlordstormdragon:
There are always more than two sides to any story, even if the story only has two actors!

I think aside from software elitism, there's nothing wrong with using Poser. Just don't expect the high-end 3D respect you'll get, since using other people's models (which aren't great models to begin with) won't get you respect in character-creation circles. Poser characters look weak and "quick" in comparison to custom, high-end character work.

I think, to put things into perspective, we can use Vue as a great example.

If Vue shipped with say, 5 terrain presets, and you were unable to create your own terrain from scratch, and everyone used the same 5 presets (or even 50, really: the number isn't important), then you would have a landscape equivalent of Poser.

Take a look at what all of us using Vue have been doing: creating content. Even something as simple as painting an Ecosystem is "work", sometimes even "hard work", and sometimes a total pain in the ass.

In this analogy, Poser is the Vue-for-characters which only contains 5-50 presets, and you cannot make your own. Ever. This is why people using high-end software scoff, even laugh, at Poser art. Maybe the Poser-based artist had a deadline, but don't you think the people who made Ice Age had a deadline? Watchmen? The Curious Case of Benjamin Button?

I have to agree with what Pritee and Nukeation said about the topic, too. Really, for art to be "artwork", there has to be some work involved. Anyone can pose and render in Poser; anyone can create a terrain and render it in Vue. It's the crafstman (or craftswoman) who takes the mundane and makes it amazing, emotional, or simply stunning to look at.

(But check all of our old galleries for whoop-ass Bryce art sometime, Pritee! God, I miss how easy that app was to use sometimes...)

Kerem, I don't think anyone took offense to your last journal really. This is your spot; you can say whatever you want!

--
Commodore 64 @ 1MHz
64KB RAM
1541 Floppy Drive

"I am the Storm."
:icongothitink:
I was just reading an article about that. And thanks for the response. It's something I'm more apt to notice now that it's been mentioned. Whereas before, because i'm not a 3D artist, I didn't really have the eye to tell someone if it was from one program or another.

Would post editing make a difference as far as if it looks CG?

--
"How could you be so cruel, and expect my faith in return?"
- Dream Theater


Yes, I am THE Pirate.


:pirate: :ahoy: :pirate: :ahoy: :pirate: :ahoy: :pirate:
:icondigger2000:
I would be intersted to see, in the light of your journal, what you thought of the pieces I produce then.
:iconlordstormdragon:
In many cases, post-editing is an acceptable workaround. Mind you, when I criticize the use of Poser and related apps, I spent 1998-2004 using Poser in much of my artwork. I have never finished an entire character, textured, rigged, and posed it on my own. The amount of work it takes to do so, and the expertise, is not inconsiderable to say the least.

For a really nice example of the character difference, shoot on over to HighEnd3d sometime and you'll really see a vivid difference. CGTalk also has amazing galleries which are rarely poluted with Poser-central artwork.

HighEnd3D:
[link]

CGTalk:
[link]

To the layman, or someone unaffiliated with CG in general, Poser looks awesome. All 3D and advanced and progressive... But consider the CG in any of your favorite movies, and you're not seeing Poser-central work. You're not seeing Poser anywhere. The beautiful CG characters we all know and love were made by artists by hand, the hard way; artists who weren't satisfied with mediocrity or the use of other people's inferior, low-detailed models.

And that's kind of the key: you get out of it what you put into it. I'm not criticizing Kerem's use of characters and have used many myself; just expressing my opinion after my late 2004 shift to Maya...

--
Commodore 64 @ 1MHz
64KB RAM
1541 Floppy Drive

"I am the Storm."

Press & Portfolio

I've worked with one of their kind musicians for their album cover designs, 3D Modelings and digital matte paintings for their videos. Also featured on international and local computer graphics magazines. Below you can find external links to them.

Shoutboard



Mechanical




Dreams On Fire




Clubs
:iconpower-dreamers-group::iconistanbulum: :iconmozilla: :iconeuropeans: :iconterraspace: :iconunknown-prints: :icontheunknownartists: :iconnature-club: :iconmojonauts: :iconataturkcu-dusunce: :iconizmir: :iconwolf-club: :iconartists-helpcenter: :iconinner-space: :iconterrageneration: :icon3dconnect: :iconpagan-and-proud: :iconireland: :iconhdriclub: :iconart-masters: :iconx-filesfans:

Stampzy












"Creating great art isn't about a
steady hand, it isn't a perfect curve
it isn't a honed skill.
Creating great art is all about
vision." -
Kelly Murdock


+ Powered By +
:iconriddleb0x:

+ My Favorite Digital Artists +
:iconwadewood: :iconzer05um: :icontomwilcox: :iconsvenart:

Complete List Of The People and Groups I Currently Watch

All images in my galleries are protected by copyright law. If you wish to use any of my images in any manner, please read my Terms of Use and then contact me via email
keremwharton @ kari-rueslatten.net

My work is not stock - Unauthorized Use or Reproduction is Punishable by Death.
Thanks for your co-operation and visit.

Kerem uses: AMD and Intel Processors, Zalman CPU and VGA coolers, Coolermaster CPU coolers, Thermaltake and Feel Hurricane cases, Logitech and Microsoft Keyboards and mouses, LG and Nec DVD Writers, Philips monitors, Seagate harddrives, Nvidia graphic accelerators.

AMD - AMD Athlon 64 Logotypes © Copyright 2005 Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.

What Is Copyright

Shoutbox

~AyseSelen:iconAyseSelen:
ne zamandır kimse bir şey yazmamış ben hemen yazayım dedim :D
Mon Jun 22, 2009, 5:01 PM
=ebrulii:iconebrulii:
:lmao:
Fri Feb 20, 2009, 4:47 AM
~mervesarohan:iconmervesarohan:
:boogie:
Thu Jan 8, 2009, 10:24 AM
=ebrulii:iconebrulii:
:peace:
Mon Nov 24, 2008, 2:36 PM
=Ilayda-Arts:iconIlayda-Arts:
:love:
Wed Nov 19, 2008, 12:17 PM
=artofkerem:iconartofkerem:
please be quite - this is not a shout box!!! :D
Thu Oct 30, 2008, 6:48 AM
~Silvianalulu:iconSilvianalulu:
noli yawsss !!!
Wed Jun 25, 2008, 1:47 PM
~Seittik:iconSeittik:
SHOUT SHOUT SHOUT!!!
Sat Jun 14, 2008, 1:12 PM
~BlackClover-Original:iconBlackClover-Original:
Everything but Blender costs too much for me ;)
Fri Jun 13, 2008, 11:13 AM
=artofkerem:iconartofkerem:
am I interrupting somethin' ?! :P
Tue Apr 1, 2008, 2:28 PM
~Silvianalulu:iconSilvianalulu:
wuhuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu :aww:
Tue Apr 1, 2008, 2:00 PM
=artofkerem:iconartofkerem:
mudkips mudkips everywhere :P
Tue Apr 1, 2008, 11:24 AM
=HMSpeedFreek:iconHMSpeedFreek:
HAPPY MUDKIP DAY
Tue Apr 1, 2008, 10:51 AM
~BelovedBride:iconBelovedBride:
shoutmak ne demek evvela açıkla sonra yapiim ne yapılacaksa :p
Mon Feb 25, 2008, 5:15 PM
=artofkerem:iconartofkerem:
Shoutsaniza lan ! :D
Wed Jan 30, 2008, 12:36 PM
=HMSpeedFreek:iconHMSpeedFreek:
it's quite low down....
Sat Dec 29, 2007, 1:25 PM
=artofkerem:iconartofkerem:
hey no ones shouting anymore... :hmm:
Wed Dec 26, 2007, 1:49 PM
=artofkerem:iconartofkerem:
Tired of Bury the pain As I bury this knife in my body. Slowly Slipping Away To another dimension of virtue
Thu Aug 23, 2007, 9:14 AM
~frozenapplefall:iconfrozenapplefall:
keep your dream alive! :hug:
Sun Aug 19, 2007, 12:42 PM
~frozenapplefall:iconfrozenapplefall:
keep your dream alive! :hug:
Sun Aug 19, 2007, 12:38 PM

Forum

I want you to write tutorials for 

36%
37 deviants said Vue Infinite
27%
28 deviants said Maya
19%
19 deviants said Zbrush
13%
13 deviants said Cinema 4D
5%
5 deviants said Poser

Site Map